Creative Adaptation: Pete Nguyen on Art, AI, and Emotional Understanding

Lena Robinson (: 00:01

Hi everyone, welcome to the Creatives WithAI podcast. I'm your host, Lena Robinson. And today we are going to be chatting with Pete Nguyen otherwise known as 'Artistically Autistic'. Welcome Pete.

Pete (: 00:17

Hi everyone.

Lena Robinson (: 00:18

Really excited to have you on. Everybody, some of you, already know that I have an art gallery and about, it's almost a year to the day actually that we met at an art exhibition. And you were exhibiting and I walked up to you and I saw some of your work and I was like blown away by quite a few of your pieces. They're stunning. And it would be really interesting to hear a little bit more about yourself from your perspective. So introduce yourself to everybody.

Pete (: 00:46

Sure. So my name is Pete Nguyen, also known as 'Artistically Autistic' to people that are aware of my work. So a bit about who I am and where and how I became an artist. I never started out as an artist. My background is in software engineering. That's what my degree is in. And that's what my, I was a financial system analyst.

on Wall Street and at the London Stock Exchange for about 11 years. So that was my very technical background. And the reason I turned to art illustrating was mainly to understand emotions and improve my emotional intelligence. Coming from a background a lot of people could probably relate to. My parents were good people, but they didn't have

there wasn't, I would say, high emotional intelligence. Didn't really teach us, teach me how to deal with conflict and to navigate situations with people. So I got into, you know, like a lot of people, we get into sort of these petty arguments. So it was for me, my art was about understanding emotions. So I'd be able to manage my mind a lot better to be able to get the best out of myself. So my art was just a way of deep diving and looking at these specific emotions.

from an art and psychological point of view. I'm happy to say that as a tool, art has been really instrumental for me to understanding autism and my mind and how it works. And I'm able to share my experience through art, with a wide range of people from all different backgrounds. know, my art's how I met Lena.

was through the gallery. So my art is slowly growing over time. I'm working really hard towards building up a profile for my art, not mainly because I want to be in the spotlight as an autistic person, we generally don't like the spotlight, but because of the work I'm doing, which is about promoting mental health and then people get to understand the basics of their mind. And if they want to learn more, can just, they can

Lena Robinson (: 02:53

Okay.

Pete (: 03:07

expand on that through a number of books that are available that are online or whatever source they feel comfortable reading. For me, it's just hoping you're giving people the jumping off point so they can understand and move forward or use the content as a standalone. So I'm going to hand you back to Lena and that's who I am right now.

Lena Robinson (: 03:26

So there's a couple of other areas that you've worked in as well. You've worked in finance and banking. You've been a policeman at one point. And the AI part, which I think is going to be a really interesting conversation with you. Obviously, we've got the creative and art side, but you're also a software engineer as well. I think those all of that combination of your experience hopefully is going to be

You and I have already had many conversations about AI. I think, and I'm quite happy for you to challenge me on some of the things in my views as well. So the first question I was going to talk to you about was, you know, the art world obviously is currently being impacted by AI. With regards to your own work, and be free to tell us about what kind of work your artwork is as well, because I don't think we've touched on that.

Pete (: 03:57

Yeah, yeah

Yeah, yeah.

Lena Robinson (: 04:23

What the impact of AI has on your artwork at the moment. Are you using it at all?

Pete (: 04:29

Yes, I have started using it and I had recently just got a subscription for AI art just to play around with it. Again, this is for me, I'm an artist because I would say I'm an artist and not an illustrator because I don't just stick to one medium. Started off, actually I started off doing street art early on in my career trying to experiment with that in ways to express myself.

Found that it was not really for me. Then I moved to illustrating where I had some success. That's where the bulk of my success is. And that's where I'm building up the stories and the art world from. Also I've moved into, so I don't draw no more because that was just a tool or therapy for that period of my life. So I've moved, progressed on to digital art now. So I've been making sort of animations, short animations, just to play around with

pre - old concepts or develop new concepts. Unfortunately, Instagram hasn't really, the algorithm hasn't really, has kind of hurt that side of things because it hasn't really shown it to people compared to my illustrations. So again, I don't really make art for the algorithm, so I'm just using these as tools to understand and play around with things. So I'm really happy with the collection, the digital collection, despite Instagram not.

actually showing that to people. I'm quite proud of the work I put in. So that's the stage where I'm at. But I'm also now starting playing with AI art. for me, playing with the subscription, it's been really, really useful for me. Positive, because I look, I'm coming at this because I'm a lot of artists from a psych -cultural point of view are feeling threatened by the situation we have with AI art.

I spoke to Lena about it. Think the thing about it reminds me of when photography came out, first came out, where a lot of artists were doom and gloom and thought this was the end of realism, drawing. And I'm a big admirer of Picasso. he spoke about how it was the end of his career. And he eventually ended up adapting and doing abstract art.

generated spawned off a whole different movement of art, which is, think, what is going to happen with AI. I think it's going to be a very powerful tool from a software engineering point of view, as well as an artist's point of view. And it's also going to branch off and create its own things, like photography. Photography is now its own category. So I think it's.

Lena Robinson (: 07:18

Yeah, because I think a lot of people were quite frightened of, you know, that's not the first time I've heard that with regards to the AI and I use it myself as an analogy around what I think is happening. But, you know, photography now is seen as a fine art, you know, in my gallery I have fine art photographers. So it is really interesting. It seems to be patterns. Maybe.

Pete (: 07:42

Yeah, I agree. Mean, it's just such a useful tool. In my line of work, I've been using it to generate concepts, play around with concepts and ideas that would otherwise have taken me a long time to develop using pencil, sketching, and inking side of it, where I can literally play out an idea and see that it doesn't work and I hit a dead end. I'm like, OK, I can just throw that away.

and without having committed fully to it. And it just allows me more space to play around with different ideas and can, you know, switch to different ideas and, you know, put my hands on, yeah, this idea doesn't work. So move on to the next, you know, it's just been such a useful tool for that. And I've used AI for me, I've created not AI art, but more AI assisted art, you know. So for me, I use things, I use AI to generate

serve images that I want and I build the art around that to create a whole story to express myself, which I think I showed one recently to Lena. So it's about using your imagination. For me, it's about telling stories. It's just another tool in my arsenal and it's something I'm, as a creative, it's good because you're putting different things together. That's what creativity is. You're putting different things together to generate new ideas.

and new concepts. I think it's, again, there's going to be different levels eventually become different levels of sophisticated AI art. For me, I was just saying, it's just like when people use Google. There's some people that are basic Googlers. They can just Google, look for things. And there's people that are really good at Googling. I probably fit into the intermediate level because I can understand what regular expressions are. And I can use them to search for specific patterns on the internet.

which basic news Google can't do that. So I think it's going to be similar in that response with AI, people going to be able to understand the prompt and understand the technology behind it, especially if you're a software engineer, you're going to be able to understand regular expressions, you're going to be able to use those things and understand if the AI tool that you're using supports that and you can use that because it's a very powerful language. I used it as a support analyst when I was in banking.

looking for this partial searches and let the you you can let the AI fill in the rest you know you know the computer find the rest and it's just it can get really advanced if you know how to use it it becomes a very specialised tool but again if you know it's going to be the thing about AI artists is AI is that it's going to open up to so many people so there's going to be a lot of people be able to express themselves you know

Yeah, I think it's just going to be a great tool for different people, for different things. There's going to be, as a software engineer, there's so many use cases for this. And there's potential. There's still, I'd say, as an artist and as a software engineer, it's still very, very much in its early stages, because there's still so much you need to iron out. There's discrepancies with images, with people's fingers, generating too many fingers and stuff like that.

There's stuff like this, just needs to, it will get ironed out, not in the short term, I don't think, because technology still takes time to develop, but I'd say in the free, past the five year range, I suppose this stuff will get ironed out. For me, why I see it going is, I mentioned it without sounding too nerdy, I think it's gonna be like a 2D Star Trek holodeck, basically, where people can generate what they want, and to play around with things.

So it be for the average user to advanced users. But yeah, I think it's a great tool. And I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes from a software engineering point of view and as an artist. Again, and also from a psychological point of view, I'm trying to not let personal fear and emotions get in the way of using tools that could benefit my work. Again, there's still a lot of stigma. I like to realise I couldn't.

you know, the stuff I make with AIR, I could monetize that in a way I can with my illustrations. Again, you know, it's not something that people really want to. But again, I'm not really creating art for people. I'm creating art to understand emotions. I'm creating art to tell stories. That's my objective. It's not really, you know, I'm not there, you again, this is the thing that we're to have to iron out with art between

the definitions, the definition. This is uncharted territory, so we're to have to iron out the definitions as we go along, because there's currently no definitions. Because for me, I think we've disagreed on a few things in terms of labelings. But again, these are the things that eventually need to hash out to understand what

Lena Robinson (: 12:54

I think it's good to have debate on these things. like that's a question I was going to ask you. Like in your opinion, what do you think the definition is of an AI artist?

Pete (: 13:06

Again, I disagree with the definition of AI artists because I don't think they create them. It doesn't quite fit with for me. There's more. It's just not. You can use it, but for me it's just not accurate enough. I like to be more precise. So for me, I'd be like I would call myself an art generator, you know, an art instigator.

That's what my role is. Instigating art, like for me, that's what I would call myself if I was using AI as a tool in my art. an, I use, I call myself an art instigator rather than an artist. As artists for me, you know, is more about craftsmanship and putting ideas together, which I, you know, it just doesn't quite meet that criteria for me. I mean, I'm not just saying anything negative about it. just, like to be more precise in my wording and

held, you know, and be more, what's the word, be more precise and true and not use the word, you know, I feel like some people do use AI to, you know, elevate themselves, you know, artificially, you know, which is, you know, it's, it's just insecurity. But again, it's, you know, it affects the people that do use generally AI for, you know, to make good stuff and

do good, interesting stuff with it because I've seen some interesting stuff. You can play with concepts. I love some of the concepts that come out. You can do some of your favourite movies. What if they were a steampunk theme? Star Trek, steampunk. What if your favourite character was steampunk looking? You can put that in there and generate that. think that's fun. think that's great use of AI, a great way of looking at something different.

Lena Robinson (: 14:48

That would be cool.

Pete (: 15:02

It's not something, yeah, again, you can call yourself an AI instigator creating those sort of images. And I'd be happy with that. like, yeah, that's fantastic. I'd to see that. I'm not sure I'd part money to buy that stuff. But yeah, I'd definitely love to see more of it and have it around rather than ban the whole thing or just literally just trying to stifle AI, basically, in our.

Again, this is not just unique to the art industry. This is going to have an effect across the board. Obviously, we're going to, for the purpose of this talk, we just keep it confined to art so we don't go off in a tangent, which we do sometimes. Yeah.

Lena Robinson (: 15:46

Do. It's really interesting because what that brings me to is something that I've been talking to people about so and you sort of touched on a little bit. So looking ahead, how do you envision AI is going to be shaping the world of art over the sort of, that is in its infancy at the moment, but instead of three to five years time, what's that going to look like and how do you think artists are going to need to adjust?

Pete (: 16:15

In the three to five year time, I think this is probably the hardest period for AIR because you're battling several things as from a software engineering point of view, there's still a lot of work to be done and there's a lot of bugs to be ironed out. it's not going to be fully there. It's nowhere near where it should be right now, but you can kind of expect that from.

You know, it's still so early, you know, so you kind of expect that it's not going to be a fully functional tool that you could use. So there's going to be some drawbacks. For me, I found it to be quite imprecise first because I have like, I'm a autistic, so I have very clear images in my head I want to generate. It's just quite fiddly to do that. But again, this is no criticism. It's just...

Lena Robinson (: 16:52

you

Pete (: 17:10

In the three to five year wait, it's not going to be there yet. There's going to be so much work arounds you're to need to do as an artist, basically, as a software engineer and as an artist. And but yeah, and also, like I said, the three to five years basically is when we start defining legally and the reality of AI in art, basically, because that's two different things. Legal definitions is very different from the reality, you know. So

doesn't always conform, this is what we're going to have to of iron out as a culture and a society to define what we're looking at and what we're facing, what's in front of us basically, rather than sort of everyone has their own tidbit which doesn't always line up. We need a universal sort of way of looking at things, defining things in terms of this field and that's going to be in the next three to five years. But again, I just think

Lena Robinson (: 17:45

Yeah.

Pete (: 18:09

Sorry, but yeah, the big thing for me would be to use AI, advance as an artist, as a tool, it's going to be there. But the big thing for me would be looking at this from a psychological point of view as well to see the impact, people's reactions, one. Is it our fear? Do they have a genuine stance that they believe in that has some merit to it?

Lena Robinson (: 18:10

Okay.

Pete (: 18:37

Or they just hate it because out of fear, know, ban AI Art. It's like, yeah, but why? Yeah, but why? It's like, can you explain, elaborate? Is it just fear or is it something more rational? So again, there's two sides here that I'm weary of. The people that are artists that are insecure against AI Art and the people that do use AIR but just to buff their own ego, which is, I don't like both those cases. I think they damage.

the AI in the art industry, basically. And I'm weary of those sort of two groups because they have their own agendas. And it's not objective. I like to be objective. like to keep insecurities out of the conversation and try to do things rationally. And if there is concerns, what are the logical concerns? Can we talk it out? Can you communicate them rather than just putting up a wall?

basically, you know. So that's the thing I'm on the lookout for. So as a software engineering point of view, I'm looking at how technology is progressing from a psychological point of view. I'm looking at the attitudes on why people are the way they are towards AI art, you know. And the third one is as an artist, I see it as a very powerful tool to generate concepts and play around with ideas without committing.

Lena Robinson (: 19:35

Yeah.

Pete (: 20:03

And then, again, it's in the right hands. It's a great tool. I think we spoke about this before. You put a pencil in someone's hand. They can maybe do a few things, write a few words. But you put it in an artist's hands, they're going be able to create some amazing art with it. So you put the tool in the right hands, you're going to be able to create something amazing. I think there's going to be so many talented minds out there. Not necessarily mine, probably, but like,

I can see the massive potential in it. I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying the experience playing with it. It's still frustrating at times, but it's, Yeah, I find the software engineering a bit exciting because I'm like, okay, this is not how I program this. But then I'm not amazing. I'm not a brazing programmer, but I look at things like, okay, this can be done better from a programming point of view. But again, these are the...

Lena Robinson (: 20:42

I'll be the software engineer in you.

Pete (: 21:02

things are going to eventually get worked out. But in the short term, it's going to be a very difficult transition because you've got the negative attitudes from, you've got, not saying negative, but toxic attitudes from AI artists and artists alike. I think they're both toxic. I think if we can stamp that out of that conversation, then we can actually get to the core of AI in art and actually see the benefits and how it can help us.

as a species, as a human being, it's going to maybe eliminate some of those small commission jobs. Those could probably go because a lot of artists say you want to design a logo, you just go on the art app, give me a chair that looks like this, and that's my logo. That's not for all that. Again, you're just going have to find new ways to adapt as an artist. If you've got your work line of work, obviously, there's no way around that. You're to have to be like Picasso, basically, find another way around from.

Lena Robinson (: 22:01

Well, yeah.

Pete (: 22:02

you if I know another way of living, you know, those that don't adapt just to get left behind. That's why for me, it's important to stay with technology and understand where it's going so you can navigate the world basically, otherwise you're going to get caught in your pants down.

Lena Robinson (: 22:16

Yeah, well AI is not going anywhere, but then art isn't going anywhere either. And I think your point about you put a pencil, and I've had this conversation with other people before, not just yourself, that you put a pencil, pen, anything like a paintbrush or even a sculpting knife in the hands of a person that isn't artistic, then you're going to get ABC.

if you put it in the hand of a true artist, then you're gonna get something extraordinary anyway, which gives me hope actually, because at the beginning of all this, I was never afraid of it, but I didn't understand it as much as I do now. But what I have been excited by is that there's now people that are honing their craft.

of whatever we want to call it AI out or whatever we want to call it. What did you call it before?

Pete (: 23:16

AI artist gator.

Lena Robinson (: 23:18

That's an art instigator. I love that term, by the way. I think there's exciting times to come. And to your point, there are things that are not anywhere near there yet, and there is going to be a need for adjustment. So if we were to look at the five to 10 years time, what are your thoughts on the development of the world of AI and art that far out? Because in this world,

Pete (: 23:24

Thank you.

Lena Robinson (: 23:49

Five to ten years is actually quite long these days.

Pete (: 23:51

That's quite a long time. Yeah. I mean, if you're looking at early five years time, mean, this is still going to be still developing. the 10 year mark, I think it's to be significant. If you're looking at a decade, there's going to be a decade of advancement and looking at this. This is going to grow again. the lot with technology, I find with technology, a lot of people think progression of technology is going to be steady, but that's not the case with tech.

You know, when you look at technology, how it's progressed, it goes like this. then steep, goes a bit, and then steep. you just make, it advances very, very quick. know, once you hit a certain point, just like, it just goes straight up. So you might not think it's moving that fast, but then it hits a point and it just spirals up. And I think when it's towards here, that's a 10 year mark, I think there's going to be massive,

refinements, I think it's gonna be a much more polished tool where we are. it's, I don't think it's gonna be quite the Star Trek holodeck level, but I think it's that's what it's moving towards. I think, you know, I think it's gonna be a very fun, interesting time, because it's just gonna be opening up to so many users, like, you know, again, people worry about is dilute the art market, you know, again,

nd I've sold, I've come up to: 7000

you know, tastes and temperaments and stuff like that. You know, I think it's just going to be, you know, if you can find a market, I mean, again, when you do what I do, go to the market and sell your stuff at shows and exhibitions and markets and you're in the court of public opinion, right? And people are, they like it when they don't, you know, over flow it will sink, you know, and it's again, there's

everyone, there's so many niches people can find, you know, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a niche, people dig out niches themselves. Right now, probably couldn't, you know, monetize everything, you know, the art I used AI to assist it didn't, but it doesn't stop me from using it and playing with it. And it's a way of expressing my ideas. For me, art is an expression of consciousness. you know, and when you're doing

kind of input you're expressing yourself. Because for me, again, I see the difference between writing and creative writing. So that also is going to play a part in the input that you put in. That's going to determine what comes out. Again, you're not going to have the craftsmanship there, but you're going to have the craftsmanship in terms of the text, but not the, obviously, image side of it. So you're to be lacking that, for me.

That's the only drawback as an artist. When I'm crafting something, for me, one of my illustrations takes me three to four weeks to do. It gives me that time to reflect on things and think about things more deeply and refine things as I go along and take open my change. Sometimes it changes my path because I get to this point, I'm like, this actually works better. I'm just going to try that way. But you kind of lose that little bit.

that sort of development, you know, in terms of, you know, that's the word, evolution. So you lose that sort of evolution to some sort of different ideas, you know, where you just go from A straight to B, you know. That's the only thing. But again, that's not a criticism. For me, it's just, you're going to lose that element, but you're going to gain other things, again, but that's just something to be aware of when you're doing, you know.

with AI, art, and stuff like that, you're going to lose that element. So if I go down that path, which I do, which I have, I'm going to lose that sort of part of the art world. But again, it allows me to generate ideas at such a high volume, which is what I've done. I'm like, generating, know, last couple of days, I've generated like 30, 40 ideas. Probably about two of them were actually decent, you know, out of decent ideas that I liked and I kept.

Lena Robinson (: 28:31

So here.

Pete (: 28:36

And I moulded it into what you saw basically, one of my artworks. I don't know if you could show that on the video. Put that in. But yeah.

Lena Robinson (: 28:44

We're putting lots of links and things to your different artworks. So don't worry about that people. We'll be definitely providing that.

Pete (: 28:49

Yeah. so yeah, so stuff like that is again, this is about expressing yourself. And, again, it's not art's not always about money. But, you know, you know, it's art sometimes just about expressing yourself, you know, but at same time, there's a lot more to being an artist, as a lot of people found out the hardware, you know, than just drawing, you know, or just painting or whatever, you know, there's a lot more to being an artist than just creating.

is creating a piece of art, it's your, you know, your, your politics, your personality, you because a lot of people, they don't just buy the art, they buy it, they buy you, you know, so it depends on your, your character, you know, as an art, as an artist, it's a humbling experience, like coming from a banking background where I was on a comfortable salary to, to being an artist, basically, and being able to

be able to talk to and connect to people, know, because for me, art is about connections. And that's why most of that 7 ,000 prints I've sold is, know, 99 % of that has been in person. And that's what I focus on because, yeah, so I focus on that heavily because it's about human connection. It's about people in the day. That's why I try not to be insecure about it. Like a classic example would be down the market. As far as I know, at the time of this recording,

I'm the only artist that allows people to take pictures because for me, I recognize that if someone wants to steal my work, they'll do it anyway. So why penalise the people who just want to take a few pictures to remember their day by, you know, and share their friends possibly, you know, come back and buy it later. You know, again, it's just pure insecure, you know, like, don't take pictures of my art. No, no, no. It's like, yeah, they're just normal people. You're like, if someone wants to steal it, they'll go on my website and take it anyway.

Lena Robinson (: 30:44

Yeah, I think that's an interesting question that I'd like to ask you then around how much impact AI is going to have on things like sales and the business side of things, because you're mentioning that there's other impacts that it's going to have. From a business perspective, do you think AI will be helping support

Pete (: 30:46

side.

Lena Robinson (: 31:11

artists and how they run their business, do you think?

Pete (: 31:14

massively, massively. Again, I tried to not talk about it because I didn't want to go outside too much outside the scope of what we're talking about. But yeah, if you're going there, I'm happy to go there. yeah, AI in general is going to be massive. It's going to change the way we work. That's why if you're not learning how to incorporate AI into your work, you are going to get left behind.

you are seriously going to get left behind. You're going to handicap yourself so badly because ARC, for me, you can use ARC to respond to messages, to emails that are sensitive topics. can use it to refine the emails that you're sending out. You can tell it to analyse things. You can ask it questions based on its vast knowledge. And you can get it to, like the classic example I always

had an application form for, just filling out an application form for a space and they wanted a biography for my art. And I wrote like a, I had on my finger like a 400 page biography, but they wanted like a hundred word thing. I just chucked in and look, can you just break this down to 400 words and then maybe tweak it here and there, but it's new sort of thing, didn't mean to swear there.

Lena Robinson (: 32:39

right into the FI.

Pete (: 32:41

OK, sorry, I tried to be PG. So, but yeah, this is what it's useful for. There's so many limits. You can just create it and you can use it. I can use it as a person. You can use it for customer support. You can use it to analyse data. You can use it to analyse trends. There's just so much potential. if you need to start finding ways,

People need to start finding ways to incorporate into their lives and how they do things because if you get stuck with you, you need to start getting comfortable with it because it's not going to go away and it's only going to get better. And it's basically, it's what's going to the difference between, you know, you be living a modern life or you're to get left behind because you, it's such a powerful tool to polish things up and be able to interact with each other in a, in a, in a healthy way. Cause sometimes you can say, look, you know, to AI, you know,

amount of times, you know, someone's, you know, we've all got that email where that's triggered our ego, baited our egos, like, we're writing this email back. And, you know, again, when people you do that stage, I always recommend people and I always do it is leave it for a day, you know, and don't, don't, don't ever send that sort of thing. Yeah, feel free to vent on that email. Make sure you take the email out so you don't actually hit send. You know, that's what I do. Vent out, vent it out. And then and then afterwards.

Lena Robinson (: 33:54

Yep, if I.

of that, wouldn't it?

Pete (: 34:10

Yeah, exactly. Then I throw it, know, I'm like, calm down. And then I'm like, okay, throw it into the eyes and look, can you just pacify this making, you know, take the aggression out of it or whatever, you know, you know, and then it just, it helps really, really helps make things sound professional and courteous without, you know, becoming emotionally unstable, what I call insecure, you know, and it's just like, it's, it's

Lena Robinson (: 34:24

it.

What's really interesting about that is that creatives and artists, you you and I have talked about this before, creatives and artists often find the business side of being a creative and an artist quite difficult. AI is going to be able to help make that easier, a lot easier, I think.

Pete (: 34:46

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. So I've really built it into a lot of my practices, not just art, but also my day -to -day use when I'm doing admin work, looking at data. I'm always thinking, how can I get AI to help me with this? it's just stuff like stuff I wrote about.

understanding the basic guide to psychology, basically the stepping stone. I used the AI to help me. wrote the article myself. Then I got AI to reword it in a way that I liked, you know, and then I obviously customised it little bit, you know, just to tweak it here and there. But, you know, I fed it what I gave it. And I said, look, can you make it sound a certain way and fact check it, make sure it sounds logical and points line up.

And is there anything, you I can ask things like, is there anything you dispute in there? Again, yeah, again, it's great. It's great for that. so, you know, again, most people would think that because again, comes down to psychology, people don't want to ask this question because they feel insecure. It feels like they're undermining themselves. It's like, no, this could actually be a tool to strengthen your knowledge, you know, you know, show up your weaknesses, you know, it's like, no, if you're to deny that and hide, you're going to be insecure and

Lena Robinson (: 35:55

Good question.

Pete (: 36:18

not be able to ask those hard questions, then yeah, you handicap yourself, you know, like, again, it's, it's a great tool. It's just one of many use cases that you can do to improve your quality of life, the way you work and just become more efficient, know, just more efficient, you know, and it's just, it's great because I got to refine my ideas through AI and so look, what do you think, you know, how I define autism, you know, I got to talk about, you know, for me,

Autism is a type of human condition that is almost like what I call droid effect. We have this sort of Android effect on our brain that, know, so we perceive things from a very almost like computer like way. So short term short story is people are like computers, but with autistic people, we have less RAM. That's where I describe it to people. That's the easiest way.

Lena Robinson (: 37:09

I love it.

Pete (: 37:13

explain a little bit more detail, but not too much detail because I don't like to overload people. I like to keep people just the very basics and they can fill in the gaps from themselves. But that's how I decided autism. And I used AI to have debates on that just between me and AI and to refine my ideas. Literally, yeah, refine my ideas. I had debates with AI. didn't know it was possible. I got into arguments with AI. He said, look, are you sure?

Because I think this and this, this, this. And then they're like, yeah, this is great because it's all based on logic. And it's just like,

Lena Robinson (: 37:48

I love it. It's amazing. I'm so going to give all of going.

Pete (: 37:51

So that's why I'm quite proud of the work, the two articles I wrote about our minds and the psychology and what autism is. hopefully I drilled down to it and I tried to be objective as much as possible and iron out where any confusion might be and try not to use.

to be too technical, and use examples and metaphors that people can understand. So that's just a glimpse of what I've been using AI for. But yeah, this is just a tool. And as long as you're not afraid of it, it's just so many. can start to open up a classic example. When someone is toxic to you, you are less likely to see their strengths. You're likely to see all their

Lena Robinson (: 38:24

This video, I -

Yeah.

Pete (: 38:47

Bad points. You never want to see their good points. That's what's happening here with your fear. When you fear AI, you're not going to see its full potential. You're not going able to see all these avenues that I've used to come up with to say, look, I can ask AI this. Tell me where my argument's weak. Why and explain why you think that's weak. And I'll respond back to this. This is why I think you're wrong. And then, yeah, just go back and forth with you until you're a point where you're happy.

that something's been logically ironed out. You can talk it out with someone about, it's just, you've just got to overcome your insecurities, be able to see the tool for what is and be able to open up your mind to different possibilities. Otherwise you're going to close, you become very tunnel vision and you're not going be able to use it to its full effect. But yeah, what'd she say?

Lena Robinson (: 39:36

That potential alone of AI being used to iron out challenging your own thinking is extraordinary. Not just for creatives and artists, but for anybody out there that's got an idea tossing around in their brain and they want to challenge whether or not you could use it for business concepts and so many things.

Pete (: 39:50

Exactly.

So many, so many.

Lena Robinson (: 40:00

mean, Shark Tank and Dragon's Den will probably take on a whole not -want -be half as fun!

Pete (: 40:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's insane. mean, with AI, you've got to remember, as it learns, it's going to retain the information that you fed it before. It's not like Google wipes, because the analogy is to stop sentient happening in computers, fantasy world like Star Wars.

You wipe the computer every day so it doesn't develop consciousness, you know, but with AI, they're remembering, they're evolving. So they're remembering your past conversations. like, so you're like, you can ask it about past conversations. Like, wow, what about this? You know, it's, you know, it's, it's adapting to you. So you're going to be able to very, it's going to be very malleable and very custom to you. And it's be able to, you'd be able to literally have really deep.

rich conversations, know, which you can't with, you know, like Google because it gets, once you finish searching, you know, that's it just resets, you know, you're not gonna remember anything, unless you have cookies and stuff like that. that's not what I'm getting at here. But yeah, but yeah, this is very, this is what I'm saying. This is I was trying to get at, the AI is such a powerful, powerful tool, and it's far reaching.

Lena Robinson (: 41:18

Thank you.

Pete (: 41:28

And if you open up your mind, it's just you can find creative ways to use it and help you through life. It's just, it's there to help you.

Lena Robinson (: 41:38

Do you think?

It is, it is. Do you think that there are going to be, I don't know what I'm using this word very broadly, a whole new breed of creatives and artists coming through that in the generations coming behind us, they're just going to look at the world in a very different way artistically because of AI.

Pete (: 42:06

Yes, yes and no. I do think there's going to be a new revolution with this. But I think I still do believe in traditional art as well. I think I'm coming from, there's just certain things that you can do with traditional art that you can't do with AI and vice versa. But again, I think the playing field, art is a big, big.

Lena Robinson (: 42:17

Yeah, I know,

Pete (: 42:31

category, you know, like, and we've constantly always adding different mediums to it. And this for me, this is no different, you know, like, again, the only thing for me, and is, again, honesty, know, are we honestly about this? Are you fearful? Are you insecure about this? What are you using? Are you using art to general, you know, buff up your ego and, you know, put down, you know, I've seen artists use

AI art to put down real arts is just ridiculous. know, it's just, it's, made that sort of behavior is toxic. Again, if we can iron out this toxic aim from both sides of the aisle and just use it constructively, then yeah, it's, it means, but then again, I think this is more going beyond art itself. This is going down the psychology route of insecurity in general. You know, that's why I am promoting

Lena Robinson (: 43:19

Yeah.

Pete (: 43:26

healthy mindset, know, understanding our minds, you know, just just understand why you think the way you do and understand when you're acting like a human being, because a human being is about being logical and empathetic, where the more insecure you are, the more likely you are to get defensive and angry and make things about you, you know, so that's why it's important to, you know, try and distance yourself in that motion, understand when your emotions and your egos and play

Because we all have an ego. we need to manage it so it doesn't affect, tint things, so you can look at things in a healthy way. Otherwise, you're a monster, you're going to look at things in a negative light, and you're never going to have that tint, which stops you progressing as a person. So again, I won't go too much into detail because this is a bit off topic. But yeah, going back to the AIR.

Lena Robinson (: 44:21

That makes sense though and I think, you know, having had conversations with other artists that like, you know, know, Tom, because he's also part of our FTISQ gallery crew, you know, he's like, he's like yourself, he is an artist, you know, he's a fine artist that can do it without AI. And he is somebody that's also playing around with it a lot, yourself, creating a lot of concepts and ideas and things. And I think

Pete (: 44:24

Yeah

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Lena Robinson (: 44:48

I remember seeing a comment that was made to him on Facebook by another artist who was kind of, to your point, fearful about what, you know, is he not worried about it and blah, blah, and that it would wipe out his other art. And he literally came back and said, why does it have to be an either or? And it doesn't, you know, to your point, it's not one or the other, which I think is quite interesting.

Pete (: 45:10

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, it is not what's the word symbiosis, is that the word? Where coexist, you don't need one or the other, know? It's either one or the other. But yeah, I think it's again, this is insecurity behaviour that we need to eventually stamp out of this conversation, you know, from toxic artists isn't.

Lena Robinson (: 45:21

to know.

think it all naturally just happened. think there's more people just coming into it.

Pete (: 45:42

yeah, there's no stopping it. The wheels in motion as much as it's just this, you know, like your colleague, know, a fellow artist or fellow artists that you just mentioned. In that scenario for me, when you're dealing with toxic people who are going to be toxic towards you, whether it's an artist or an art instigator, you know, one of those two categories, if they're toxic, me.

I tweet, the way I explain in school people is they're like, it's like a lifeguard. A lifeguard approaches someone with their foot out. The reason they approach someone with their foot out is to create distance. Because for me, their option is either I try to say we both drown because of your erratic behaviour is gonna pull me down, or you just drown and I you to your struggles. That's an option of a lifeguard. That's why it has to put your feet out. the other person is gonna pull you down.

if they don't calm down. Let's look calm down or I'm not going to save you. know, the same with insecure people. If you get too close to them, they're to pull you down their drama and their toxic behaviour. So with people like that, I think it's just best to keep your distance, you know, not with them, you know, don't be no negative feelings, no hard feelings. Just you know what? This is toxic behaviour. And I'm going to say, you know, I'm not going to let that pull me down and just sort of back off. You know, that's my approach to these sort of behaviour. Like when I see artists is that

anti -AI and I see these art instigators that are using it to elevate themselves by putting down artists. It's just toxic behaviour that you need to stay away from. Again, these are just drowning people that are just going to pull you down there. It's toxic behaviour. Again, that's why, eventually, that's my answer to how to stamp out that sort of behaviour. What do you think?

Lena Robinson (: 47:35

think to your point, everything else that you've been mentioning from the perspective and the art itself, it will just even itself out.

Pete (: 47:46

Yeah, definitely, definitely. It won't happen, but it's just be able to, for me, the reason I say this is just so people can be aware and don't get drawn into it, get drawn into these sort of toxic games that these insecure people play. It's just like, it's not constructive. It's not constructive to the development of AI in R, which is be able to use it and understand that this is going to

Lena Robinson (: 48:03

Yeah. Nice.

Pete (: 48:13

open up to a wide range of people, people wouldn't be able to express themselves, not necessarily for money, but be able to express themselves and tell their stories. And you've got tools, you've got artists that can use it as assisted AI art, or they can use it to generate concepts. Concepts, like I said before, you can generate your favourite TV show in a steampunk aesthetics, which is going to be interesting to look at. I find that stuff interesting. Again, like I said, wouldn't part what

cash for it, but it's something I would love to see and I'd like to see more of it. You know, and this is just an example, one example, fun things you can do with AI entertainment, you know, this is fantastic. It's a great tool and I think as long as we can keep our sort of fears and insecurities out of this, it will have its place in our society and I think it's going be very beneficial to a number of people.

Lena Robinson (: 49:10

Well that brings me to a thought actually that I just had is like, if you were to pick one thing around your art and AI that you haven't tried yet but you're really excited to give a go using AI, what would that be?

Pete (: 49:26

Yeah.

I really like the idea because it's not quite there yet for me. The AI assisted art I generated for you, it was not for you but generated but I really enjoyed that. problem was I like it to be a bit more accurate. I just need it that little bit more accurate so I can make it a bit more manageable like classic example like you know

Just to give more detail in some areas, less detail in other areas. To be able to have more control, yeah, control, I suppose, of pushing certain things back and pushing things forward. Because my mind thinks very much in those terms. That's why, generally, I wear black. It's because black is what your brain doesn't process. It just sees that it's blank. So when something is white, you're going to notice that because that just makes it pop.

Lena Robinson (: 50:06

Right, the conciseness.

Pete (: 50:29

this to the background and pushes that to the foreground. That's how my mind works. And that's how, so our, not just my mind, our mind processes black and white. Black is negative space, white is positive space. So you can see that something there. That's why when I cross the road and I'm wearing black, I'm very careful because I know your brain doesn't really register me there. So I generally wear like a yellow thing around my bag.

just so people can see that there's something, a person there, wearing this black figure walking out, your brain gets, you know, you get hit by a car because someone's brain didn't pick me up, you know? I'm always mindful of that because I know, what's that?

Lena Robinson (: 51:08

So the nuance of AI is what you're most excited about being developed.

Pete (: 51:16

Yeah, so that's why I've been more control over the concepts and the ideas because, again, it took me 40 attempts to get to two things I wanted from AI. Hopefully that goes down. I don't have to slog through so much to get what I want out of it. again, a more. Again, I've seen tools that are starting to do that. Again, these are great. think, to be honest, even like

Lena Robinson (: 51:33

Bye.

Pete (: 51:44

those Photoshop animators, Photoshop art people, I think they're going to be great. It's a great tool for them. I think they're going to want to benefit from it. But even though it's funny because they're the one that's most fearful of it, but I think they're the ones that are going to be benefited from it the most. Because I think they've got the know -how to live with those images even further than I have. Again, I'm looking forward to, for me, my thing is I'm going to be looking...

Lena Robinson (: 51:59

that I get sick of football.

Pete (: 52:14

If I was to create art, I look forward to creating images that so I can build around. Because I don't like, for me, I'm not sure I would create AI art, but I'd like to create AI assisted art. There's nothing wrong with creating AI art. Again, I'm not opposed to that. Like I said before, I enjoy some of the concepts that come out of that. And it's just interesting, really interesting. And I find it literally just stretches the imagination even further. And it just allows.

Lena Robinson (: 52:35

It was really interesting.

Pete (: 52:43

us explore more countless possibilities. So for me, I'm looking forward to be able to use it as a tool to generate images that I can build my art around that are more sort of in keeping, I can customise it a more, a bit more control over it. Again, I like the generation, but I just need that bit more control over like the textures and lighting and pushing just the little.

little artist's touch to it, know, that I like.

Lena Robinson (: 53:14

My instinct is that that will happen more in the 3 to 5 year than the 5 to 10 year.

Pete (: 53:19

Yeah, I mean, I've seen the tool now. doesn't work that great, but it's there. It's there. They're definitely trying that. So yeah, I can see that being developed in the next three to five years. And I think, yeah, it's going to be a very interesting type of AI. Again, not just in art, but as a business person, as a site. I mean, it's going to change so many. Without going into detail, it's going to change the fabric of our society.

Like when we have fully realised AIR, you can have automated cars everywhere. Your taxi drivers is going to be a robot, which is for an antisocial autistic person like me, that's a dream. But yeah, the less humans I interact with, the better. yeah, that's why I live in a church.

Lena Robinson (: 53:59

Yeah.

your prices.

Pete (: 54:19

that I thought would talk to us about that.

Lena Robinson (: 54:22

said I love your place, it's amazing.

Pete (: 54:24

Thank you. It's literally a hermit paradise. It really is. You see that it's literally a hermit paradise. It's literally...

Lena Robinson (: 54:29

It is a paradise.

But it's very much an artistic paradise as well. When I walked in and you told me it was in converted treats and I walked in I was like, this is exactly what I was expecting from an artist's studio. It's perfect, I loved it.

Pete (: 54:45

Yeah, yeah, I do come from a creative family, to be fair. I have three sisters and one I think is quite an exceptional artist. People might not think it, but I personally, one of my sisters, I think I really love her work. think it's in some ways, this is stronger than me. And I learned some of my illustration.

how to draw through her. actually is the one who, my middle sister, Cherry, out to her. She's the one that went to art school and studied illustration and I learned some, know, watching her, I learned some how to illustrate. You know, she taught me how to illustrate negative space and stuff like that, stuff I was stuck on. I could ask her, I it was great because she had that background in it.

So for me, she's the real artist in the family, even though I don't think she gets the credit she deserves. But my other two sisters, they're pretty good at art as well. One, they make drawn props. Our family, we growing up in secondary school here in London. We were quite known for art. So our family were known to be quite good sketchers or whatnot. So yeah, I come from that background. But yeah, it's quite weird because I'm

Lena Robinson (: 56:05

is

Pete (: 56:10

come from that background, but went into a very conservative environment because I started off in the police for two years. Then I moved into banking for 11 years before I became an artist. But those skills have served me well because again, there's more to the art than being an artist. You have to understand how to manage things, project manage. You have to be able to look at things and optimise your process because that's one of my key strengths. I'm good at looking at things.

and streamlining it and documenting things. That's another skill I have. Exactly, exactly, exactly. That's why I've got better. But what question for you then, what have you tried to use, AI or anything?

Lena Robinson (: 56:42

Well AI is perfect for all of that, isn't it?

You

Yeah, I have not from an artist's perspective specifically, but I've used it for using my own methodologies and the consultancy side of things and a lot of research and also to your point about like if I've written something that's like three pages long and I need to cut it down, I've used it, you it's all my writing and just using it to edit, edit way better than I do. yeah, I'm definitely using it and also

in my accounting packages, know, AI machine learning is going on. So yeah, lots of different things. I'm not sure if I'd want to use it for my art, to be honest. I'm not sure, can I?

Pete (: 57:27

Thanks

Bye.

Well, I think your reaction to me when I started when I mentioned that I have debates and arguments with AI was quite surprising. Would you is that something you would consider doing like like being to critique your work?

Lena Robinson (: 57:45

I'm gonna do that now.

I love a debate. It would be amazing. I would love that.

Pete (: 57:57

I think it's useful to critique the work because they're not doing it from emotional point of view. The only emotion is going to be from you. So if you can manage that, you can literally ask things. But again, there is some limitation, right? AI is not perfect. It does sometimes lie. And it does sometimes make stuff up. So you've got to be careful. That's why there's times where I found, like, wait a minute, you've made that up. That's not true.

Lena Robinson (: 58:03

Yeah, I love it.

All right. We've all been discussed.

Pete (: 58:24

I said, and they're like, yeah, they're like, they're like, consistently refusing to back down. was like, you are totally rubbish now. That's when.

Lena Robinson (: 58:32

funny because we are going to have to wrap up in a minute. just going to say the hosts for the other with AI, they're all good. So, I don't know if that's right. The other hosts and I have also been talking about the mistakes it's been making as well. that's not the, yeah, you're definitely not the only one picking up on different mistakes.

Pete (: 58:36

No worries.

Yeah, what have the other people have said? Sorry, sorry to talk over you.

Lena Robinson (: 59:00

I don't think it's intentionally making mistakes. I do think it comes down to the crafting of your prompting, for sure. Learning how to prompt better as well.

Pete (: 59:07

Hmm.

The only thing I find is, you know, the arguments I've got with AI, you know, sometimes it corrects itself and says, puts his hand up. And then other times I found it just doubles down and says, no, no, you're wrong. Literally telling me to go away basically. And I'm like, excuse me? So yeah, it's how you, but yeah, it's interesting. I'll be interested to see how.

Lena Robinson (: 59:24

lovely.

O -C -A -I Both C -A -I Anyway There's a hole that we're coming through

Pete (: 59:38

other artists respond to what we have, our comments today, because I think we've covered a lot of things, covered a lot of things. Hopefully, I think we covered it in an objective way and not an emotional antagonistic way. Hopefully, it's been, yeah, you know, for me, I'm not pro, you know, anti -AI, I'm not, you know, exactly pro -AI either, AI art either.

Lena Robinson (: 59:42

Yeah, it will be.

Pete (: 1:00:04

I like to see myself in between and look at both sides of the argument, see what's rational, and see if you can back it up. And long as they don't show that it's coming from some sort of insecurity, then I'm happy to have an open discussion and take that on board. So I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. And the most thing I like in the three to five years is to iron out the definitions.

Lena Robinson (: 1:00:23

Yeah, no, I agree.

Pete (: 1:00:34

And that's that because I think once we got that we can clear things up more and people can know where they stand. You know, that's the most important thing. Yeah. Anyway.

Lena Robinson (: 1:00:42

I don't think you're the only person with that question on their mind. So, but anyway, thanks so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure as always, conversation. I have one more question to ask, which I try and ask any of my guests is if you could recommend or if you could think of a person that you think you would love to hear as a guest on this podcast, Creators with AI,

Pete (: 1:00:50

Now raise.

Okay.

Lena Robinson (: 1:01:10

Do you have anybody in your mind? It could be somebody famous, it could just be a friend. Is there somebody as a creative that you think would be a really good podcast guest?

Pete (: 1:01:19

Yeah, probably my hero. She's a singer, very famous singer. If you grew up in the 90s, you probably heard of her. Her name's Jules. She's folk country singer. Fantastic. For me, she's my hero. a lot, know, potomacally speaking, I love her. She's amazing as an artist, I think.

Lena Robinson (: 1:01:34

Nice.

Pete (: 1:01:48

Her art as an artist, love her work, love her mind, the way she thinks. And from a psychological point of view, like her understanding of psychology has transformed my life. And it's really helped me through my day to life life. And it's had influence on my personal work myself. So she's my hero. I love everything she talks about. think she's an absolute gold gem. Just the stuff she comes out.

gold, that's all I can say. it's just so yeah. Well her full name is Jules Kelcher, so she's from Alaska. She's self -made person you know, so I think her story, yeah she's amazing. Like I can't gush about her enough, like because she's just for me just an awesome human being. Like just you know, get me wrong, she's flawed as well, but if you can get her on there, my god, my mind would be blown.

Lena Robinson (: 1:02:19

Don't look!

that's cool.

find the link and I'll put it into the note as well.

I'm gonna put that on my list.

We've had Daniel Biddingfield on already, so that's not out of the...

Pete (: 1:02:49

wow. Jesus, I haven't heard that name since for a long time. That's, that's, Jesus, that's, yep.

Lena Robinson (: 1:02:56

So yeah, see ya. But anyway, thank you for that. I'm gonna look Joel up and see if we can put her on the list. Thank you very much for being on today and giving us your time and quite an interesting angle because of the software angle and the psychology angle and the art angle. So thank you for that. Thank you everybody for listening. And we will put lots of links to see Pete's artwork up around on our show notes and continue being curious.

Pete (: 1:03:03

Thank

Yeah, yeah. And if you want to, if you want to find talk to me in person, I'm at Brick Lane every weekend, backyard market. Okay. Thanks, everyone. Cheers.

Lena Robinson (: 1:03:25

everybody.

We'll find links for all that as well. Thank you everybody. Stay curious. Bye.