Curiosity and Creativity: A year in review with David and Lena

David Brown: 00:00:03

You know, that's something I try and teach my son, is, you know, you have to put yourself in a position for good things to happen. And so, you know, you have to do the networking and you have to go to the events and you have to do. You just have to do the stuff.

And if you do the stuff, good things can happen.

Voiceover: 00:00:21

You're listening to WithAI FM.

Lena Robinson: 00:00:25

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Creatives WithAI. I'm your host, Lena Robinson, and today we have a very special guest.

It's also the previous host, David Brown. Hi, Dave, how are you?

David Brown: 00:00:37

I'm very well. How are you?

Lena Robinson: 00:00:38

I'm excited because today is a special recording. It's about you and I as the two hosts for this year.

Looking back over: 2024

And the first one was around, I guess. Is there any standouts, sort of moments for Creatives with AI, for you and for I? So, starting with you, any standout moments this year?

David Brown: 00:01:23

Well, first, I'd like to say thank you for taking over the show.

I think it had got to the point where I really wanted somebody who had more of a creative, an actual creative background and some experience working with creatives, rather than me just trying to host conversations with a bunch of random people, which was kind of interesting, maybe, and a bit of fun, maybe for the listeners. But I really. I do appreciate you taking over and spending the time and putting in all the work that you put in.

So I just wanted to start off by saying that you're welcome. It's been fun. Yeah. So standouts. I think that's what we were talking about, right? Standouts.

Lena Robinson: 00:02:05

Standouts.

David Brown: 00:02:06

A standout for me, actually, was Daniel Bedingfield, really, because it was a. It was just a bit of luck. It was being in the right place at the right time and sort of having the confidence or the.

Well, actually, the lack of intimidation, I guess, of just, you know, starting up a conversation. Because I really. I mean, honestly, I really didn't really know who he was, but I heard him having a conversation with another reporter and I was.

Because I was just sitting there actually doing some editing of the show, like the show that needed to go out that week, and I was just listening to what he was saying, and it was really, really interesting about how he used AI to get new ideas and to try out things before he made his own music. So he wasn't using AI to replace the work that he did. What he was doing was using it to try out new things and he would try something.

The example I think he gave was what does bhangra and drum and bass sound like?

And he could put that in and have the AI create something and create several versions of it and he could listen to them and kind of go, eh, that works. Or well, or me, that doesn't really work. Or wow, that's amazing. I can do something with that. Maybe I should go down that road.

And it was literally just a chance, you know, just me saying, hey, you know, what you were talking about was really interesting. And I run a show and we talk about this all the time. And you know, he just said, well, do you have some time now?

So it was, it was very much luck, you know, I don't think I could have ever really got through to him and like, and I've never been able to speak to him again since then either, so. Which is hilarious too. But, but anyway, that, for me, that was the standout. And I know who yours is as well.

And like you said, we talked about this the other day, which I think will then lead into to another observation about the year. But who is yours?

Lena Robinson: 00:04:05

Well, I'm just gonna comment on what you said about Daniel Bedingfield.

I think what's really important and maybe something for those listening, if they do have their own podcast and that is that you need to be on it, listen, jump onto something and willing to take that moment, that opportunity. Cause I think that's a really important, important thing that's in life.

David Brown: 00:04:29

Right. Like you need to be, you need to be ready.

And my, my old father in law used to say, and I know this is a general expression, but it's, you know, Lady Luck won't dance with you if you're not on the dance floor. Yep.

And Lady Luck danced with me because I was in the right place because I got a media pass to go to the AI Summit and I was sitting in the media room and I figured that I might have an opportunity to meet either some other reporters and other people who worked in the, you know, the business who would be good for me networking, but that, you know, maybe there might be some interesting people that might come in the room and I could shake hands and, and, and, and get a break. And I did.

And so, you know, that's something I try and teach my son, is, you know, you, you have to put yourself in a position for good things to happen and so you, you know, you have to do the networking and you have to go to the events and you have to do. You just have to do the stuff. And if you do the stuff, good things can happen.

Lena Robinson: 00:05:24

Anyway, weirdly segues beautifully into my. I mean, I've loved all of my guests for different reasons.

They've all brought something to the table and hopefully I'll be able to drop bits and bobs about them all today. But my moment, for several reasons, has been having Tom Morley on the podcast for two reasons, two main reasons.

One, he is an extraordinary man at 70 years of age. He is using AI to create art, which is in the FTSQ gallery, which I own. He is using it to. And lots of different styles of art too.

He's using it to create new music. And he was real. It was really amazing because on our show he created a piece of music that specifically for our show, which was just amazing.

So thank you, Tom.

David Brown: 00:06:25

And it's really good, actually.

Lena Robinson: 00:06:26

It's really good.

David Brown: 00:06:28

I actually listen to it outside of just. I mean, I know, you know, we put it in the show and it's at the end of that show, but occasionally I actually just pull it up and listen to it.

Lena Robinson: 00:06:37

Yeah, so do I. Am I. And for those of you that may not have listened to the podcast, definitely go and look. We'll put it in the links. But.

But also for those of you that don't know, Tom Morley is the ex drummer of 80s pop band Scritti Polity, which is why he has. It's relevant to talk about the music he's creating. He was a music creator anyway. But what he's also using it for is filmmaking.

And it's extraordinary across those three different areas of creativity, which is art, music and filmmaking. You know, he's an extraordinary person to talk to.

So the fact that also it coincided with being my first ever in studio recording as well, it was quite a special moment for me. And the reason why I was talking about why it's a segue and that moment of like taking those moments is that I meet Tom four about four years ago.

Yeah, because it was: 2020

Obviously took me a lot longer with my illnesses and everything, but I met him, he was on with one of the other podcast guests, actually, Andrew Grill, who's been on education with AI. He and another friend of mine, Mint Adile, who hopefully will get on next year. They were hosting a podcast conference and Tom was one of.

He was doing his Drumming, which he often, you know, that's his commercial side of things, which he does at different events and so forth. I bought him on. He was doing his drumming to get the crowd jazzed up, particularly because it was online at that point.

We're all in lockdown and all that kind of stuff. And what was amazing is that. And this. No, not amazing. AI saw this person that was just extraordinary.

But also we were thrown into different rooms online. And what I did is I just took that moment and said, you don't know me. But what you've been saying, Sarah, really resonates with me.

At some point, I would really like you to come on my podcast now. I was originally talking about coming onto my consultancy podcast, your fts. It's interesting. As time's gone by, we kept in contact.

We never kind of lost touch about things. And then I found him. I contacted him when he started posting stuff that he was doing with AI on Facebook, I think it was.

And I kind of said, oh, wow, this is amazing. This is an artist that is creating with AI. I'd really like to see if he'd like to talk to me about being in the gallery.

And it's just turned out that he is a huge user of AI, so he was always in my mind. If I was ever going to do an in person, firsttime podcast in the studio, it was going to be with Tom.

So for me, for so many reasons, he has been an extraordinary person to have on as a podcast. Like, what a storyteller. I mean, you and I just were in there just like listening. So. Yeah, that's pretty much mine.

David Brown: 00:09:54

Yeah, he's good. He's a super nice guy as well.

Lena Robinson: 00:09:57

He is a super nice guy and really down to earth and oh my goodness, he's such a hard worker. Yeah, you know, sorry, I'm just trying to get my night token. That's closed.

David Brown: 00:10:07

But I, I think, I think that's. Sorry.

Lena Robinson: 00:10:11

That's all right.

David Brown: 00:10:11

I've got a bad throat today. That time of year, I think I. I think. But that's the way of the world now. I don't.

I don't think people retire like they used to, you know, I could never see.

I would be so bored just sitting at home, you know, trying to do stuff and, you know, I mean, yeah, okay, I love to ride motorcycles and stuff and I could, but even that. Do you know what I mean? I could only tour around on a bike for so, so long. I'd like actually need to be doing something somewhere.

So I'm not Surprised. But yeah, no, he is.

He is super energetic and doing loads of things and he was an amazing guest to have on and he's an amazing person to have as a resource for us to go and talk to and to ask questions because he's very hands on as well.

Lena Robinson: 00:10:58

And I think curious, totally curious about everything, which you and I both know is a massive theme for creators with AI is that stay curious thing. And I know Ben, who was on recently, talked about that.

Like, there's so many of the people that we've talked to that have, like, they like to play and be curious about things, you know, and if I look at, if there's anything, there's a theme that's come out and I know we weren't going to talk about themes this year, but if there is a theme like that curiosity thing, I think is magic. Yeah, you know, it's magic.

David Brown: 00:11:35

I found it. And I know I said this the other day as well. I've. I found it interesting that our two top guests were both musicians.

I know as well, and I think, I think.

Lena Robinson: 00:11:49

I think that. Were you.

David Brown: 00:11:52

No. I think a lot of press gets given obviously to the film aspect.

So you've got Sora and all the new film stuff that's coming and obviously the chat GPT and the, and the, the text and the writing and the. And that sort of thing. Not too much attention is paid to music and AI and music in, in the general press for some reason.

And I don't know why that is, first of all. And second of all.

But I do find it interesting, I guess, second of all, I find it interesting that artists, I think in musicians, they seem to be very divided, very divided. There is no gray area. They're either using it or they hate it. And there's no middle ground.

Lena Robinson: 00:12:38

Isn't he the complete opposite? He's like.

I mean, he's obviously a massive techie person, you know, is having been the, the deputy CEO of Tech City when it was launched and what have you. But no, he's like, I want to play my guitar. That's my headspace. You know, he's definitely not music and AI for sure.

He is happy with, you know, interested in AI.

David Brown: 00:12:59

Yeah. And I think, I think very quickly, film is going the same way.

I think I was talking, I was on another podcast and we were talking about the fact that, you know, B roll, you know, there's a lot of filmmakers who make a lot of money off of just going and recording B roll. And for what? For people who don't Know what B roll is?

That's like the shots of outdoors or stuff driving around or people working at desks while you're talking about something else. So it's not the main person talking to the camera or the main action, it's something else.

Anyway, there's an entire industry and has been for decades around people just going and filming that. So that other, you know, you can license it, you can go look for stuff like I need a shot of traffic while I'm talking about traffic.

And you just go and find somebody who did some amazing video of traffic. Well, you don't need to do that anymore.

You can literally go to AI and you can say, give me a 30 second clip of traffic, you know, busy, a busy intersection in a city in North America and it will come back and give you exactly what you need. And you don't have to pay anybody to use that for the rights on that.

There's no copyright on it and you can use that freely and basically do what you want with it. That's potentially going to wipe out an entire industry for a lot, a lot of freelancers.

And you know, so I think people in the film community are becoming very divided over it as well. And I know we've had some film people on in the past year and I know Joanna's had some of those people, some of the women on, on women with A.I.

but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really. I think there's becoming a really hard line. I don't know too many people that are, that are gray on that. They're either.

It's literally the death of the film industry and I hate it and I'll never use it and I don't even, I won't even come on your show and talk about it because they see that as promoting it.

Lena Robinson: 00:14:59

That's interesting.

David Brown: 00:15:00

So I have some people that I think would really be interesting to talk to, but they refuse to come on the show because literally, because they're like, I don't even want to talk about it.

And yeah, and then there's the other people who use it a lot, you know, and, and that's a, I think that's a theme that's coming is particularly in those, I think in music and in film in particular, it seems to be. There's becoming a really hard line. Whereas in a lot of other stuff, I don't see that hard line forming yet.

Lena Robinson: 00:15:29

Do you think that hard line will stay there though, or do you think over time? You know, I talked about this on my.

Me, myself and AI talking to myself last, the other week about the fear factor and my prediction of the fact that over time that fear will disappear.

Although I think, you know, you'd look at people like Oscar Mitchell Higgs that we had on, who's one of my fine artists, and, you know, he was the one that introduced me to ChatGPT. I'd never used. I mean, obviously we'd all been using AI at different elements, I suppose, without even realizing it.

But my first foray into it was with ChatGPT and he introduced me to it and he use. Used it to create NFTs and things like that that I don't represent.

But he's made a choice, a conscious choice, to stick with the traditional way that he. Because it's something that he likes to create. And I think, yes, there's a divide and there's a whole lot of people in his community that just like.

No, I'm wondering because I, I think there'll be people like Tom, for example, and like Oscar and so forth, who can do both.

And some will choose to continue to do both and some will choose to just stick with one or the other or use it for different things at different times. You know, exactly that line, though. Will it stay as a hard line, do you reckon?

David Brown: 00:17:08

I think so for a while. I do. I. I think for a while it'll stay pretty.

I think a lot of people will stay firmly in either camp and it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. There's still a lot of.

There are a lot of things in play legally, there are a lot of things in play in the courts, and I think, I do think that ultimately we will reach some. Will reach some agreement on how people can be compensated. There was a really interesting.

Actually the episode on the Law with AI that went out this week with Alistair, the guest, Alistair, who's a lawyer, he was talking about a project where they were thinking about how do you in practice actually pay people whose IP might have been used in a model and in a. In a bit of content that gets created? How do you identify what percentage of their IP got used?

Because that's the issue is if you, if you say create something in the style of Rankin, I always use that example.

So let's say you ask it, I want something in the style of Rankin and it creates you a black and white, you know, profile of yourself or a person or whatever, then you could safely say that probably most of the IP that it used was Rankin's ip.

But if you just say, I'd like to have a stylish black and white profile picture of a woman, that could be Rankin, that could be Annie Leibovitz, that could be any number of a thousand other photographers that it's drawing on. So how do you then say, well, that's Annie Leibovitz or that's Rankin, or that's this or that's that. And.

And I think this is the issue and this is what he was getting to. So what Alistair was suggesting. And I have to put the disclaimer or they'll kill me. This is not legal advice, I'm not a lawyer and all that.

But go listen to the episode with Alistair if you really want to know more about it.

But basically the point was, is do we get to the point where you essentially set up a trust and so you as maybe a photographer, then you join some organization that then has almost like a Spotify, where you get a hundredth of a P for every time an image comes up, that some elements of your style. And the problem is the tech and understanding how that would work.

But anyway, I think until we have that and some level of that, then I think we're going to have that line. I think the line will soften if we can get to the point where we can say, okay, like voice, for example. Voice is quite clear.

You can say, hey, I want to create a commercial with Tom Hanks voice. Fine. Tom Hanks has already said he's quite happy for AI. He's happy for people to use it as long as he gets royalties.

Or when you use his voice on that one. Yeah. So I think there's that level.

So once there's a mechanism that people can get recognition or they can get payment or they can get whatever, then I think that line will soften.

Lena Robinson: 00:20:41

Yeah, I mean, Tim Carter talked about that when we had the podcast with him. In case you haven't seen it. He's the guy that we talked about the monkey problem.

But because he's working in that world, or has been with flawless AI and the work that they're doing, and he is also a lawyer by trade originally, he's got some really interesting takes on that whole area of licensing and ethics and all that kind of thing, because it just, it does keep coming up. And one of the questions when you were talking then about.

Or that I had in my head when you were talking just then was, what is the difference between the. In style of. Is that copying or is it just being inspired by, like, if you were to say Inspired by.

In a prompt, would it come up with something different than in the style of Question Mark? Don't know. Haven't. It'd be quite interesting to do the two and see what. Changing that one word. I might give that a go later.

David Brown: 00:21:50

And this, and this is where it gets. I think the line is extremely blurry. And I've talked about this for a long time, which is, this is how humans learn, right?

If you go to art school or you go to, you know, you go to film school, what do you do? You study all the directors, you study all the old films, you study all the work that's happened before you.

And then you take all of that and then you start to make your own thing. But there are very clearly influences in current directors and producers and that sort of thing to people from the past.

So if that happened in AI, somebody would say, oh, they're copying me and I want something from that. But if a human does it, they go, oh, well, they were influenced by that person, obviously, because it looks similar.

Lena Robinson: 00:22:41

And it's a reason why artists study the masters. Yeah, it's a reason why art history is a Bachelor of Arts for that very reason. You know, we all look at.

David Brown: 00:22:53

And this is, this is a theme that I want to get onto personally and, and I'm not, you know, on, on some of the, some of our shows. I think creatives is probably one of the best ones to do it and, and probably the law as well about that concept of.

But it's more about, like, what's the difference between an AI doing it and a human doing it because they learn exactly the same way, or.

Lena Robinson: 00:23:19

This is going to be controversial. Maybe it's in some ways from the.

Just purely from that perspective, maybe better because it has access to so much more information than one human will ever be able to keep in their head.

David Brown: 00:23:33

Well, this is, this is why.

So they've already done some testing about empathy and they've, they've given test subjects situations and then they've given them responses from humans and from AI. And the AI wins every single time. By a large percentage, people prefer the AI answers.

And that totally makes sense because me, I have a limited exposure to Maybe I've met 10,000 people in my life, so that is the sum of my knowledge or my interactions with those people. AI is drawing on interactions with 6 billion people over hundreds of years of information that it's ingested.

So you would expect that it would give a more empathetic response. Plus, I'm a dick anyway, so you're not, you're not. I don't even have, I don't have empathy. I'm not, I'm, I'm not really empathetic.

I'm not an empathetic person. So I struggle with that. That's a personal thing.

But so, but for me personally, using AI to come up with an empathetic answer to someone who comes to me was something that I really don't care about is actually really good. And I can see why. And it's exactly what you're saying. And that's why AI and I always say this is. It's better than 99% of people at any given task.

So if you're a physicist and You've got a PhD in nuclear physics, yes, you're going to be smarter, probably, and you're going to give better, more accurate answers than an AI is.

But me sitting here at this table, who took one course of physics when I was in high school and you asked me a question about nuclear physics, the AI is 100% of the time going to give you a better answer than I can. So it will give a better answer than 99% of the people in the world, probably 99.9% of the people in the world who aren't nuclear physicists.

And you can sub in any topic for that. So it could be transport analysts, it could be directors, it can be, you know, I don't know, ad tech.

You know, people who work in ad tech, like whatever your 1% of the experts in that field will always, will probably give you a better, more accurate, more thoughtful answer than an AI. But for people who know nothing about it, the AI is always smarter.

Lena Robinson: 00:26:04

Also, I think, you know, AI is always, in my opinion anyway, going to be drawing within the lines because of the fact, and I don't mean, I mean metaphorically drawing within the lines because it knows, you know, it knows ones and zeros and it know, it's ultimately it's built on logic, isn't it? It's an algorithm. Algorithms that are built on, you know, when you talk about tech, logic, I mean, that's what I'm talking about.

Whereas the humans, the thing that I love about human creativity is they do the maddest things. Humans are bonkers. I love that we're chaotic and weird and odd and we will do that one.

We will push things so far beyond anything that ever existed before now. Will that ever end? I don't know. Who knows? Possibly the future, does that start to, does that capability reduce and reduce that I'm not Sure.

David Brown: 00:27:08

I don't know.

Lena Robinson: 00:27:08

I still think there's. That there's a.

David Brown: 00:27:10

Is it just if you come up with an eye, if you. I don't know.

Let's say if, If a third person said, okay, Dave and Lena, you both go away and do some art and come back, I might come back with something that you think is really creative and weird, and you come back with something that's really creative and weird.

But people who have similar experiences to us may not think that that's creative and weird because they had similar experiences and so they have similar knowledge to draw on. And so again, this is why I think some people think other people are creative because.

Just because they had different experiences in different places with different people and they had different things and they had different education and different backgrounds and how their parents raised them and what they encouraged and what they didn't, and. And all of that, plus their own kind of internal wiring as well. But they're still.

I think they're still only using the experiences and the knowledge that they have to then do something. So in a way, which is why I think AI for a lot of people is also. Is also creative because again, it has a lot more data and experiences to draw on.

And what's interesting is you can ask it a question and sometimes it'll come back and you think, wow, that's quite smart. And it's not. This is going to also be controversial. This is why I want to talk about this as a specific, like a whole show.

I really want to dig into this and this gets on to who I want to have as a. I love. And I know.

Lena Robinson: 00:28:43

Bring it on.

David Brown: 00:28:45

And I know. And. And I. Again, I'm. I'm co hosting. Sort. I've got roped into co hosting another show. Sorry, Voice is terrible today.

And I think it's one of the things. It's one of the reasons we started that show was to talk about this as a topic. But I think we're. We're the ones as individuals who are limited.

And so within reason, the AI knows more than I do.

Again, it has more data and more information and more background about any topic, which is why I might write something and then I'll take it to AI and I'll say, hey, what did I forget? And it comes back with like five things that I just didn't even think of. I'll be like, yeah, okay, that totally makes sense. And that's right.

And I wish I'd thought of that, but I didn't. And so again, that's where the power comes from. Now, as a human, I would say it's smarter than me. It just has a bigger data set and it's learned.

Learned. It's got stuff in its background that I can't remember or that I never knew or I never learned.

Lena Robinson: 00:29:55

On one hand, I agree with you with the fact that people have limited data in our brains, limited experiences, all the rest of it. And AI technically underlying the word technically, can go and grab from all the data that's ever been out there and what have you.

I think where the humans still have the edge at this point, and I possibly think it will always, this is just my opinion, is that there are things in this world, ideas and concepts and stuff that are so fucking nuts, should not on any level, in any world that has ever been created, should make any sense whatsoever.

But somehow there's an artist or a creative person or even a creative strategist thinker will come up with a never thought of before thing that's still happening. Of course it's still happening, otherwise inventions wouldn't exist. Right?

David Brown: 00:31:00

Yeah.

Lena Robinson: 00:31:01

So from that perspective, because of the fact that AI is only going from data that exists, what I don't think it has the edge on yet now, it might do, but I don't think it does at the moment. I think humans still have the edge on doing the wacky. That just has never been done before.

So again, it shouldn't make sense, but people trust the gut and instinct.

David Brown: 00:31:22

So here's where you get that human AI thing again. If a human does it, it's creative. If AI does it, it's a hallucination and it's wrong.

Lena Robinson: 00:31:35

Not what I was saying, but I understand.

David Brown: 00:31:37

No, but I know, I know that's not what you were saying.

But what I'm thinking is, again, this is the observation is that for some reason, let's call it creativity, if the AI does something weird, then people go, oh, it's just. It's an error. But if a human does something weird, it's creative.

Lena Robinson: 00:31:57

Oh, that's interesting.

David Brown: 00:31:59

So why.

Lena Robinson: 00:32:00

Cole was talking about that, wasn't he? He was talking about the fact that.

And I've seen it, he'll put something out on his book at first, he won't tell anybody that what he's created is AI generated. And then when they go, oh, that's amazing.

Love it, blah, blah, blah, the moment they find out it's AI and go, oh, I don't like it, then, yeah, that's ridiculous. You either like something or you don't.

David Brown: 00:32:22

Exactly and, and, and this is, I, and again, I think we're reaching a point. Right. I'm going to skip ahead into the conversation a little bit. This is, this is why I want to have Jordan Peterson on.

Lena Robinson: 00:32:37

Yes.

David Brown: 00:32:38

Because I think that they're, I think the issue, the thing that we're not talking about at the minute and we're not really dealing with is what. And you and I are just starting to get into it a little bit and this is totally not what we were going to talk about today.

But we're having a good conversation.

Lena Robinson: 00:32:59

Sorry everybody, we're just shooting the shit now.

David Brown: 00:33:01

Yeah. This could be a, this could be a four hour conversation if we want it to be. But I don't have time for that today.

But, but no, but I, I think, I think there's a discussion to be had about humans and our place in the world with AI because I think that this sort of thing, what we're doing at the minute is we're pushing back because we're just in a bank. No, but I think we're scared. I don't think we think about it that way. But I think we don't want to admit that this is another one of my thoughts.

Right.

We don't want to admit that we're actually that simple because a computer with enough compute power can be the same as a human and we don't like that.

Lena Robinson: 00:33:51

On a logic level. Yes.

David Brown: 00:33:54

Yeah. But we, we just keep downplaying it and we're like, oh no, it's not the same.

It's not the same because we still think that we're special, but we're not. We're just a smarter animal.

Lena Robinson: 00:34:08

Yeah.

David Brown: 00:34:08

And the AI maybe is the next iteration of that and maybe it's the next smarter animal.

But, but anyway, this is why I would like to have someone like a JP on to, to talk about because, because he's worked at the coal face of clinical psychology for a long time. So people who are, are very affected by psychological issues and things like that.

And I just wonder what his thoughts are on how we as a, as society and as people are going to deal with the fact that we are getting to a point where there are other things now that can do things better than we can.

Lena Robinson: 00:34:48

I think society will just roll with it eventually. Just like, I mean, we've spoken about this before.

Like every, every technological advancement that's global, like, you know, you know, think about accountants and bookkeepers.

I remember when I first started bookkeeping in the 90s or for my first job, they were still writing journals and journal books that then got typed in and you know, data entry was starting to move into the typing, into a system. Yeah, but everything was, a lot of stuff was still hand done. There became a group of people like, what's going to happen with all of the jobs?

I think moving forward, some just didn't cope, but the majority learned and moved on.

And I think if you look into the future then and you look at what the, you know, the Internet was just starting then as well because I started working in my ear in the early 90s, Internet had been launched, but it wasn't really, you know, down in little old New Zealand, it was just starting.

And I think, you know, when you look at every sort of iteration of that and then the dot com boom and then social media and like every single time there is something new like this, the humans roll with it. I think society just absorbs it, repackages it, moves on.

And I think it is to your point that you made earlier is the line, lines do become blurred then the next generation is not blur, it's just a. That's what it is. Like, you know, talking to Gen Zs, even millennials really. Gen Zs in particular though they've known nothing else.

Like, you know, I'm an auntie of, you know, a little tiny preschooler and she, although she's the last of seven children. Cause my brother's had seven. Him and his wife had seven kids.

You know, she's a tiny little dot but from the moment she could move, she could get things going like she loves dancing and music.

So even in nappies she would be going on Spotify and picking things and just, you know, that's quite extraordinary, you know, and I think how it's going to be the same, you know, when, you know, you must be finding that with talking to your son Aiden, like, you know, the way he's looking at it, just not even thinking about it being an issue. It's just here and it's moving on, you know, while we're having these discussions probably.

David Brown: 00:37:10

Well, you say not being an issue, but it is actually having an impact on certainly on, on the kids. I mean he's doing his A levels now, so he's 17, he'll be 18 in, in, in, in May. So he's just stepping out and getting his start in the world of work.

But I think that his generation and the kids younger than him are, are very much reconsidering what their future place in the world is going to be. Yeah, and a lot of them have seen the writing on the wall already.

And so a lot of them are thinking about going back and training and being in the trades, for example, and those sorts of physical like labor type jobs and those sorts of things like electricians. Electricians and plumbers and that sort of thing.

Because, because the ones who are paying attention are already seeing that those office jobs are just not going to be there, that they don't have a future in that type of job because the AI is going to get better and better and it is going to make it where companies need fewer and fewer people. And so those jobs are going to become more and more competitive and you'd probably be better off doing something else.

Like a lot of them aren't going to unique because they don't see the value in it.

Because you know, who wants to go and, and rack up 50, 100, 200,000 pounds of debt to then come out of uni and still not be able to get a job because everyone has a degree anyway. So a degree doesn't mean anything anymore.

Lena Robinson: 00:38:51

No. And hasn't for a while, actually.

David Brown: 00:38:54

Yeah.

And, and a lot of his, a lot of the kids his age are also thinking, well, you know, after I do my A levels, maybe I'll take a gap year, see how I think after that.

But they're looking at like apprentice programs because you can work, you can get hands on experience, you still end up getting a degree at the end of it, but in that time, instead of paying, you're actually working a job and getting paid. And so you're out there, you're actually doing stuff instead of sitting in school.

And then when you come out you're like, okay, well I've gone to uni, I've had a good time. Fine, you've got a first or whatever. But now it's super competitive and you still can't get a job and you still end up working at Starbucks.

Lena Robinson: 00:39:36

So like, no, what's the point? Not having a. Not having children. I had no idea that that was starting to be the conversation that actually. The rise of the Apprentice again.

Yeah, that's fascinating.

David Brown: 00:39:51

Yeah, I mean that's, it's, you know, he's talking about it, loads of his mates are talking about it. Of course there's still a certain number of kids and you know, the parents were all pushing them still because we were all pushed.

It's like, oh, you must go to uni. All of the entrepreneurs that I know, I produce for another show called the Networking Spark, which is a business networking thing.

And Jess, who's the who is the founder of that networking thing and the host of the show. She interviews millionaires and kind of people who've been very successful in business and she digs into their stories and all that kind of stuff.

And a hundred percent of the people that are millionaires that have been on her show so far didn't go to uni. They went straight to work and they got stuck in and they started working. Richard Branson didn't go to Unique, got stuck in, went straight to work.

Like you don't need. What you need is you need to be proactive and you need to do the other things that, that make you successful.

Anyway, sorry, I've veered way off topic, but the point is, is that I, I think there is an impact on the future because they're already recognizing that AI is potentially going to have an impact on their ability to work. So they're choosing different jobs where they'll have a longer running it, you know, things like electrical and plumbing and all that sort of stuff.

Frankly, even if robots come out and you've got 3D printing and all that sort of stuff, that's not going to solve that problem because the vast majority of the work that they do is going into an existing structure and having to fix and work out and figure out what's going on and what's gone wrong.

Lena Robinson: 00:41:39

Go under a sink, under a house.

David Brown: 00:41:42

Exactly.

ng to be able to walk into my: 1980

And so yeah, there's, there's a really interesting thing.

And, and is that then going to turn into a self fulfilling prophecy that there's going to be fewer people who are qualified to do the knowledge job so they get AI to do it because there's fewer people and they can't hire them anyway? I don't know. Maybe, but I don't know. It's, it's all quite interesting.

But, but again there's an impact to that I think as a societal thing that, you know, are we gonna have to get used to as society of getting over this idea of going in and becoming, you know, going and getting some desk job and making loads of money like, the kids are already out of that now. Like, they can't afford. They think they can't afford to live. They can, but they think they can't because they're like, oh, I don't have enough.

You know, like, they think that we just had loads of money when we were young, which we never did, you know. But anyway, again, that's a whole nother podcast. I'll do that on my crazy Uncle Dave's.

Lena Robinson: 00:43:06

Well, that sort of impact on future does segue. Again, not losing that word segue a lot today.

hing for creatives with AI in: 2025

oughts on creators with AI in: 2025

David Brown: 00:43:37

I think we're going to see a lot of advancements in the technology and I think that's going to give us some interesting things to talk about. I'm hoping that we'll, we'll have some, some more really interesting people on the show.

I mean, I know, you know, we will, and we'll, we'll have people in all different areas. I'd like to get more, I'd like to get a few more filmmakers on, I think, and I would like to get some more musicians as well.

I mean, I know we've both highlighted musicians, but they're basically the two that we've had on. So I'd like to, I'd like to dig into that a little bit more, I think. But again, I also want to.

And what's going to be interesting and exciting, and I'm trying to do this across all the shows in the with AI Network, which is.

I want to try and turn the conversation around from kind of, you know, I always say I wanted to be the canary in the coal mine when I started, and it was about flagging this as a potential issue that, hey, we need to recognize that this is happening. I think that's pretty well done. I think everybody in all the creative industries are pretty aware of what's happening now.

Now the conversation needs to be how do we use that to make ourselves better and to protect ourselves and to, you know, really figure out the good ways to use it in our industry. And I think across the board, I think that's really going to be exciting is to, to see what's happening.

But then to start, I Want to have a positive view on it and the people that we talk to, I want to go, okay, so how, how do we do this? Like, what are your thoughts?

What, what do we do moving forward to make this, to make us better creators, to make us better employees, to make us better people? And I really want to have that kind of, that, that positive future view to it, to, okay, so what can we do? What, what's the creative stuff we can do?

How can we use this? And I'm really excited about those conversations to see what people can come up with and the stuff that's coming out.

And I know, you know, we're going to do this across all the shows. I've just started a new show which is startups and I'm going to be talking to those companies on the bleeding edge.

I know in all the other shows we don't really like people to come on and pitch. You know, we, we want founders and stuff to come on and talk about again, that future and that sort of thing.

Startups is the place they can come and pitch. So that's specifically going to be what that shows about. So it's come with your new AI technology.

Come and tell me why it's important, what problem are you solving and all that. So that's going to be interesting. But yeah, I want to hear from the creatives and like, how do we turn it around?

So the Toms and the, and the, and the Daniel Bedingfields. Right.

So I want those types to come on and I want them to say, hey, yeah, okay, there's some, potentially some issues here, but here's how we can start to use this to make us better artists and to, and to push the industry forward. What about you?

Lena Robinson: 00:46:48

So for me, I'm looking forward to. So I've already started booking people in for next year to your point.

I've got a composer actually that's coming on next year and I've got, that'll be good photographers in different areas and other creators.

I want to talk to more commercial creative people as far as, like the, you know, graphic designers and that kind of thing, because that's going to impact them a lot. And I also would like to delve into areas, you know, you know, creative industry is such a broad term.

You know, I'd like to really love to talk to fashion designers and architects and people like that.

David Brown: 00:47:36

Just have some architects for you.

Lena Robinson: 00:47:38

Yeah, that'd be good. I'd really like to spread into sort of some different areas.

I would also like to talk to somebody who would like to come on and be completely against AI and have that debate, because I think it's a good. It's a good debate to have, which sort of still keeps us in what we were talking about before, about impact. But I think. I don't think the opinions.

It's not a right or wrong opinion, it's a point of view.

And I would really like to unpack with some people that don't want to go anywhere near it, are not interested in going anywhere near it to try and understand why. I have an instinct that it'll be a bit of. Quite a bit fear driven, but it might not. And I'm happy to have that conversation.

David Brown: 00:48:23

Maybe we'll try and get even.

Lena Robinson: 00:48:25

Fry would be a perfect example of that because he's not a fan at all and he's a technophile. He loves technology. So I'd love to, if we could get him on, you know, can you imagine? Oh, my God. I mean, those two actually. Oh, my God.

You've been on stage many times, they blow your mind. So.

David Brown: 00:48:43

Yeah, yeah, that'd be amazing. You could. We could get YOPE back on. So. Yope Mindersma Minder Schma was on quite early in. In.

In the Creatives with AI Journey and my journey with the show.

And he runs the organization called Pause AI and it's his group that sort of protest outside the speeches when, When Sam Altman was going around the world and talking to all the leaders and they had protests out front. It was the Pause AI group that was doing all the protesting and everything. And I, I saw them, they were outside when I.

When I went and saw Sam Altman here in London and. And I find out who. I found out who it was. And then I reached out to him on LinkedIn and he came on the show and he was.

At the time, he was very, very, very apprehensive. I want. Don't want to say scared, but he almost was scared. Like he, he really, you know, he. He really felt that this was a. A terrible thing.

I think he's now come back off of that stance a little bit. So it might be really interesting to get him back on the show to talk about that and to talk about how he feels differently now than he did then.

So I'll make an introduction for you and you can reach out and see if you can get him on, because that'd be really interesting, I think, to have.

Lena Robinson: 00:50:11

And maybe we will link the original recording in the links as well, because then they'll be able to do a comparison. Yeah, so that's kind of where we're at on that.

h our listeners as we wrap up: 2024

David Brown: 00:50:55

Don't be afraid, I think.

Lena Robinson: 00:50:59

Good one.

David Brown: 00:51:01

I, we, we can't be afraid. We're not in a, we're not in a world anymore where you can put your head in the sand and not pay attention to something because you don't like it.

The march of technology is on us or upon us and fastest I've ever seen, I think.

Lena Robinson: 00:51:19

Yeah.

David Brown: 00:51:20

And it's only accelerating and we, you know, I can't keep track. I mean, I use one tool, maybe two now to, you know, that I, that I do with the show. But a lot of this stuff, again, I do everything manually.

I do the sound production, I do the video, all that stuff that's all done manually that we don't use AI for that. But I do have AI tools I use. But what I've realized is I can't keep up with any of it.

You know, I'm, I'm in, I don't even want to tell you how many AI focused WhatsApp groups I'm in and organizations I'm part of. It's ridiculous. I really need to, I really need to trim down. But, but you know, constantly everybody's posting a new thing, hey, have you seen this?

Oh, my son loves playing with this thing. And oh, have you seen the Google Notebook lm? And I'm like, I haven't even had time to go and play with.

I mean, I know it exists and I know what it does and I've seen videos about it and I've seen loads of info, but I don't have time to go and play with it. But I'm not afraid of any of it. And I really, I am curious and I know we talk a lot about being curious, but it's more than being curious.

It's go out and do it and do some hands on experimenting, find some different tools and go and play with them and kind of see what they do. You know, 11 labs, for example, on the audio standpoint, you know, on the audio front, doing amazing stuff.

They've now got a tool where you can, you Know, it will read, like read books for you and it will do all sorts of stuff and you can have conversations with it and it's like, okay, it's cool. How do you use it? I don't know. You know, for me personally. Is it practical? Not really.

It's a fun toy to play with, but I don't see where, where I could use that if I were doing something differently.

Like if I wanted to do a 15 minute daily podcast about what's the news, what's the latest AI news, and pull the top three stories from yesterday and then talk about those, I could automate all of that now.

Lena Robinson: 00:53:22

Yeah.

David Brown: 00:53:23

So I don't have to do that myself. But again, I don't want to do that because I think there's loads of people out there doing that already.

Lena Robinson: 00:53:29

Yeah.

David Brown: 00:53:30

And I'm not sure that that brings any value other than just potentially getting clicks. So again, playing with it and kind of going, okay, this technology is really cool. Like a different one is hey Gen.

So you've got 11 labs that does a voice and then you've got hey Gen H E Y G E N that also does voice.

But what hey Gen does is different because it will translate a video for you and it will reshape the mouth of, of the person talking so that it matches the words in, in the other language.

Now that's useful because if we take this show and we put it on YouTube, then we could put it into hey Gen and we could say, convert this into Spanish and German and French and Arabic and whatever and it could go away and it could do all of that and then we could post the show in those languages on those native platforms. Now that has a value, so I can see where that's valuable. Whereas I don't see it as much in 11 labs off, just off the top of my head.

And like, I'm not endorsing anyone or not endorsing another.

I know there's loads of people who get loads of value from 11 labs, so I'm not shitting on 11 labs, but I think the only way you find out about that stuff is to go and actually do it yourself. So that's my thing is don't be afraid, go and play with the tools.

Almost everything has a free tier that you can, you know, be part of and you can go and play around and at least get an idea about what all this stuff does. And then, you know, maybe you will be surprised and you'll find something that actually will make your life easier.

And, and, yeah, and, and Some that won't. So that's. That would be my advice. Is. Is. Is don't be afraid.

Lena Robinson: 00:55:13

Don't be afraid. Good. Message segues again using that word. Gotta stop doing that.

David Brown: 00:55:19

So word of the day.

Lena Robinson: 00:55:21

It is the word of the day. Segways because it's similar. This is a better word. It dovetails in with what I was going to say, which is go and play. Have a play with it all.

Which fits in really beautifully with the last podcast where I threw out a challenge to everybody, which was to whatever your field of creativity, whether it be writing, you know, story writing, whether it is creating arts, whether it is making film or making music or whatever that thing is that you like to write, writing a poem. Go and find the piece of AI kit that will be. Or technology that will be most suited. Play with a couple if you like, but go and create some.

Something that. On any theme, as long as it's like clean and something that we can re. Share.

But like what come back to us on social medias and all of our social medias are in the linky things and use the hashtag creatives with AI when you post that thing and tell us about the journey as well and whatever copy you want to create because we want to see what people are doing with playing listeners. That is your challenge. Go and create something amazing.

Share it with us on social media and use the hashtag creativeswithai and we'll definitely look at that. And unless there's something seriously, legally we're going to get in trouble for, we will reshare that and. And put.

David Brown: 00:57:06

And then we'll share it twice.

Lena Robinson: 00:57:10

You're in charge of the legals, not me.

David Brown: 00:57:14

And I just. Something came to mind while you were saying all that as well, which is. And, and maybe this goes back to a question you asked a minute ago. And I'm.

And I hadn't thought about it, but I'm conscious of time where we are as well.

nd, I think Another thing for: 2025

Lena Robinson: 00:57:39

Yes.

David Brown: 00:57:40

And maybe we can, you know, just to add something different to the mix so we could. We could have a live recording, so we could have a guest on. If we do that and we're broadcasting on things like YouTube and LinkedIn and.

And some other places all at the same time, then we could have some interaction with people in the audience as well. Really cool. So if, you know, if we Have a guest on. People would be able to literally to log into the chat and then we could have a.

We'll have a producer on the side who can sort of look at the questions and then we can try and go through and maybe get the questions answered or whatever. So I really would like to, I'd like to try that at some point during the year and I think that would be interesting. That's one thing.

Building on that, I think in May, I think it's. No, sorry, June, the 26th of June, we're having a big event in London where we're going to be at the. It's going to be a big AI beach party.

And we had it last year, which was a small event. We kind of tried it out to see how it worked and it was really, really good. You were there as well?

Lena Robinson: 00:58:45

I was.

David Brown: 00:58:47

This year I think we're going to have several different activities throughout the day. I don't want to, I don't want to say anything specific at this point because we haven't got anything set other than the date.

Lena Robinson: 00:58:58

It's a goodie.

David Brown: 00:59:00

But, but I do. Building on the live thing, I think I'd like to live broadcast all day.

So we'll have one of the little beach huts set up as a studio and then maybe what we'll do is we'll have the hosts of the different shows.

We'll get an hour where they can go and sit down and then you can have your own people to come in and chat with and maybe you give 15 minute slots or something and then you. But, but that would all that would literally be broadcast live all day.

So like it'd be like nine hours of content that'd be so cool that, that people could have. And yeah, and then we, you know, we've got a big plan.

So I think there's some new and some interesting stuff that we want to do on the technical side to try and make this a little bit more interesting for the listeners.

And you know, if we like the live thing, then maybe what will, you know, we can make it regular and we can start to have those conversations and host them.

You know, I know there's a weekly show on, on LinkedIn where they come on and they talk about it and you know, I think, I mean, it's not huge at the minute, but it's, it's quite good functionality and you can go and literally just have an interaction with people and you know, you can call them up so that they can speak and other people can hear them and it's it's quite interesting.

Lena Robinson: 01:00:07

Like it? Yeah.

David Brown: 01:00:08

Yeah.

Lena Robinson: 01:00:09

So you and I have practiced it, haven't we, with your lovely wife? So we know that it does. Does work. I'm really excited about next year. I think there's a lot. I'm happy to push boundaries, do things different.

And the other thing is, if there's any listeners out there that think that they would make a good guest or know somebody that would get in touch with us, we're all on all the socials. Dave and I are over most of them, most of the time, checking on things. So if this. If you're interested and want to get in. In contact, please do.

David Brown: 01:00:40

Yeah, we're all over LinkedIn. All the shows are on LinkedIn under their own pages. There's a with AI page, there's a Futurehand Media page, if you want to reach out.

I mean, futurehand is my company and we do all the sponsorship and production of the shows at the minute, so you can reach out there as well.

All of our accounts are at with aifm, so on any platform that you go to, if you just search for or just put that in the URL as the account name will show up, which is lucky. And, yeah, I think that was fun.

Lena Robinson: 01:01:10

It was fun. I mean, it has been an extraordinary year. I feel really, you know, when you asked me to take over from you, I was.

I felt like I was walking into big shoes for sure.

of years. So, yeah, bring on: 2025

And also thank you for being amazing producer and editor. Like, the support you give all of us has been pretty amazing.

David Brown: 01:01:54

Yeah, thank you. Yeah.

Lena Robinson: 01:01:56

I'd like to say a massive thank you to all of our guests, both the ones that have come on with Dave this year and the ones that have come on that, that. And also to you, our listeners, you're amazing.

erybody. Enjoy what's left of: 2024

And I would just like to end on the note of stay curious, everybody. See you later.

David Brown: 01:02:39

Bye. Bye.